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Let's talk about the rules! - Printable Version

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Let's talk about the rules! - Jacob Williams - 05-13-2022

After reviewing a few complaints from the last bulletins found here:

I'd like to hear from you all what you didn't like in these updates, but also what you personally think should be done or your own set of suggestions.
Please go through all 3 points

1. Guitarist change
2. Pinning Change 
3. Dueling Change

Note this is just feedback for us to make deciding easier, there is no guarantee anything will be adding but it will help us with seeing what the best course of action will be moving forward.
That way it will me a more pro-conmunity update.

RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Mike Donner - 05-13-2022

1. Guitarist change is fine, an adjustment to the job’s ruleset is something that has been requested since the job came out

2. This change is limiting of what players are allowed to do within RP and feels like a change made by staff just to stop new players from complaining. Going with the claimed reason however regarding ‘dark force reveals’ it’s not too confusing really; the dark force stood by the bridge with the snatch is revealed. Don’t get me wrong it’s not a gameplay ruining change, but it just sucks that we’re losing some of our RP freedom and the implications of why at other changes are to come are concerning. 

3. Again, this change restricts RP freedom and means that you can’t really ‘duel’ someone as you would in an actual fight (spell clashes rarely occur) and most of the accidental RDMs that do happen are caused by players jumping on the stage or standing behind the duellists. Again this also feels like a change made to make things easier for staff and could be approached in other more RP-friendly ways

Also the best course of action for all major changes going forward would be to let the community know and have some input before the changes are made; after all these changes are affecting us as players much more than they are affecting staff members.

RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Adrian - 05-13-2022

1. The Guitarist change is long overdue but very much appreciated. Nobody should have the ability to break the rules just because they paid money, especially when this rule is so strictly enforced on regular players. Ideally, the role would only be able to mic spam if the person is playing the instruments themselves and not blaring a shitty acoustic cover they found on youtube for the 12th time that hour. 

2. I see why this change was made because it's near impossible to save these people as an Auror because the 5 df standing around chatting will just instantly avada you when attempting to save the snatch. At least when people are hanging past the df line like at the qp you can instantly kill the df. I don't really see an in the middle change which would satisfy the people who like to do this and those who see it as a bad thing.

3. I think Reggie made a great suggestion in giving out a spell similar to Duelia. This could be done by having an npc located in the great hall during dueling club which gives out the spell when you press e on it. 


RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Miko Aeona - 05-13-2022

Okay so this is my views from a staff members POV - though I know this post is more aimed towards direct community members I really wanted to throw my thoughts in also.

So the first change regarding the Guitarist. I love this change, this is a change I've wanted for a while. Sure it may be restricting to the RP of the custom job, but the RP of the job is to be a GUITARTIST and to play the GUITAR. The job as it is already has more freedom than other jobs have, for example it being able to micspam or being unsnatchable. It makes sense that the job can only play the Guitar and use their own voice if they wish, rather than a singular person playing 5 instruments + 4 lots of vocals lmao.

The pinning change is another one that I do enjoy. It has nothing to do with that fact that I don't want to take the calls or that I'm lazy etc, but for me it merely comes down to the saving and auror RP side of things. Mike you stated that "the one with the snatch is revealed" but this gets tricky when there's someone pinned already and you have 4/5 dark forces sat with them at the bridge, at this moment NO ONE is revealed unless they were seen physically pinning/snatching, to which you go for the rescue and bam you're a sitting duck with 5 avada's coming at you from 1 angle and you have no way to really defend yourself. By making all those in the area revealed you may end up killing people who are coming to the area to check out what's going on which is less fun for them. By leaving it as it is it just makes things confusing for those who wish to get involved or rescue. By removing the pinning, sure you're limiting RP here but there's plenty of other places you can take the snatch to torture them. The whole point of snatching is to retreat to safety with the snatch and torture them there. If you wanna watch someone fall to their death just hang them in a tree and damage them down it's pretty simple.

The final change of the duelling signs. I do not like nor agree with this change, having Verdi fights during duelling club is what makes it the most fun. If you go there as staff, or as a teacher to watch over the class you can encourage a tournament with the shots, or some students only have this spell but want to get involved, it's limiting to the spells more so than many already are. The accidental RDM's that occur during duelling club can be some of the funniest times and things that happen, accidents happen you just move past it and carry on. Verdi only does 20hp, let the students have 4 shots at one another to see who is the victor after 4 shots (whoever has the most health remaining) and carry this fourth. 

Overall some good changes, and some poorer changes - The compendium also needs updating for a fair few custom jobs btw:)

RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Edgar Nova - 05-13-2022

As far as the changes go, besides the dwelling club one which is a little eh, I don't see any issue with them. I don't have an issue with the Guitarist being changed without notice because it should have never been able to do what it was able to do anyways. The main issue is changes to rules without any feedback being able to be given beforehand. Kinda like when put of nowhere firestorm was restricted from use from DF/Rogues/AN without any notice. It changed, there was uproar, then it got changed back. How about when rule changes come up, yall discuss in staff meeting then if it makes it past that why not put a forum poll up and see how people feel about the change? That way you know whether it will be an accepted change or people can bring up qualms with it before its hastily implemented. This kind of loops back to Pierre's feedback post but one of the issues as to why there's that disconnect between staff and players is the feeling of not really having a say in too much. I'm not saying that the poll should be the deciding factor, but it should still be a factor.

RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Reggie Riptide - 05-13-2022

The Guitarist change is nice and obviously something the community really wanted.  However I still see this as a just another restriction instead of a solution.  I feel like the real issue with The Guitarist is that it is completely removed from roleplay.  It cannot be dealt with in any normal form of roleplay like arresting or snatching.  I don't see how restricting what the job is able to play is going to allow for more roleplay interaction with that job.  Effectively they've paid to be out of roleplay which kind of defeats the purpose of playing.  Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they should be allowed to play whatever.  I just feel a better solution would be to make the job more roleplay oriented by allowing others to interact with it other than standing around listening to it.

The issue with pinning is bigger than just restricting people from pinning on the bridge.  I understand the argument of how to tell if someone's revealed or not.  Remove the bridge from the situation and change it to anywhere else and you're met with the same dilemma.  What is to stop someone from simply just moving to the whomping willow and doing the same?  The location isn't the problem here, I think that's what people are getting hung up on(pun intended).  The problem is deciding on what to do with people in the area who can be revealed.  Obviously it's a tricky situation on how to handle it, but that's what needs to be discussed and changed.  I don't think restricting locations is the solution, unless you're going to say you can only hang people in the GY(which would be stupid).

For the dueling club issue, Miko summed it up pretty well.  Accidents happen, that's what staff are there for to figure things out.  Don't restrict some of the only fun lower years can have by making complicated restrictions.  Again, if it really is a big issue that keeps reoccurring than just make Duelia a server spell.

Overall, I feel like these would have been perfect topics of discussions for community meetings.  All of these concerns could have been addressed there.  This is something that you said you were planning to do on your Server Manager application.  We only had one of these meetings and then they were cancelled.

(05-13-2022, 11:02 AM)Jacob Williams Wrote:
Closing the Gap
  • The staff team as we are now feels almost disconnected with the community, in the past we used to have TeamSpeak community meetings where all concerns were voiced. I would love to bring this back. Gaining views from the people that make the server is essential to its longevity and health. Server Meetings would be hosted ideally once a month and any and everyone would be allowed to join to voice opinions and concerns. This is also where any necessary updates will be mentioned to community members in hopes of answering any potential questions.

RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Mister Meeseeks - 05-13-2022

@Reggie Riptide (♕Queen Biggie) summed it up pretty well. Each of these changes are more restrictive on roleplay. Hanging people on the bridge isn't inherently bad, it's more along the fact that the people being hanged aren't going along with it and aren't calling out the snatchers who are clear-as-day watching them and revealing them.

If you really wanted to fix this issue you could do 2 things. 
1, make it so that you have to retreat to a revealing/PVP area to pin someone (restrictive on roleplay)
2: if they are pinned in place, in a non-revealing/non-pvp area, that the victim has special permission to owlpost a distress call and reveal the snatcher who has them kidnapped after a minute or two (opens up roleplay, adds a special exception to the metagaming/fail-OP rule).

Guitarist change I think is what the job should have started out as, I think the people on it will still be crabwalking while blasting communist soviet music during plaw, but it makes it easier for staff to tell people what they can play while they are online. I am not sure how to treat offenses if they are playing music that is, ahem, *not approved*, because it shouldn't be considered micspam immediately. 
This is a bit more restrictive on the roleplay of that job but I think everyone's willing to dogpile on it because it's a job so few people are on that is allowed to break a specific rule. If I'm being honest, suggest to remove the offenders on the job who don't respect the rules to the owner of the job and revert the changes, I don't see there being a good outcome when imposing changes- perhaps more close communication with the owner of this job is needed, yes people do complain about this job, but there's ways of adding rules to satisfy these complaints without being so restrictive on roleplay. I remember Michael introducing this job to staff and I feel like I was the only one who listened to what he said and remembers, he gave special instructions to staff that never carried over and I was amazed to see what staff were allowing despite these orders being in place. Talk with the owner of the job and get these orders (which would solve many complaints) set in stone please.

The verdi change is restrictive and re: @Reggie Riptide (♕Queen Biggie) I doubt duelia will be made into a server spell (like to be given out by snape). Literally, the person who commissioned the spell made that spell so that staff online could get on the job and give it out to prevent rdms and teach players about dueling through the Spell Scholar (This is also the same owner of a job staff are "nerfing" in a different change on here). If staff don't want players dying (outside of plaw) then maybe do the big brain approach and use the Spell Scholar to drop the spell when dueling class comes around rather than change any rules, or maybe in the interim to create roleplay especially during mingey times. I was pretty sure the owner of the job was expecting you guys to use it as much as Gringotts Guard to drop this spell, but the previous server manager didn't push that because I assume they felt this wasn't an issue and was an opportunity for staff to get involved in other ways. Michael wasn't wrong to not push the Spell Scholar as a solution because of his overall philosophy, but at the same time Michael was hardly ever on server to see it as any sort of issue and it's not wrong to have Spell Scholar be the solution. I really don't think this no-verdi rule change was made specifically for dueling class kills during plaw though, and targets people who get away with accidental-rdming-that-maybe-isn't-accidental-but-we-want-to-punish-them-anyways during dueling class. Verdi during dueling class has been a mainstay for years, and when people mis-match verdi and expelliarmus they are learning about the spell clashing system. Additionally accidental rdms during dueling club are an opportunity for staff to meet a new player and to teach about the different kinds of spells (it should not be treated like an opportunity to throw the book at them). 

Getting rid of verdi is not the best approach imo, I would have suggested: 
1. that you need to be able to see your opponent's hp during a verdi duel, to stop when the hp gets to 20 or below (20 is debatable, it can even be 40 to be safe), and probably would have moved verdi duels to the stone courtyard outside GH
2: made it so clash duels are allowed to have without a teacher present, but you must have a teacher present to stop the duel during a verdi duel. 

Either of these changes would have opened up roleplay and helped prevent rdm, but it's simpler and preferable to just revert this rule and utilize the resources that have been offered already, such as to open up the use of Spell Scholar to staff (including moderators) as it was initially intended.

TLDR: Two of these changes a job-owner in the community already helped to donate to solve and anticipated issues for, and is probably still willing to speak with and work with a proactive manager on. One of these changes needs a more high-level view and approach to it and is too banal and controversial to be left as-is.

RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Jenny Dead - 05-13-2022


To the Guitarist change, I believe some standing rules should've been established from the jobs creation. Which it was discussed with the prior server manager at the time of the creation which wasn't followed by one of the recent whitelisted players. To the current trial of the ruleset, I do believe the change to be limiting, but I can see how players do see the benefit of it. The second trial ruleset might be more beneficial to the greater mass of groups however when it does come to test. We'll see how the trial goes and see what is healthy for the server as it continues.

The pinning change is indifferent. If someone pins a snatch and then reveals themselves by shooting avada at an auror trying to save- they've either force revealed themselves or revealed already and should be heading to the dark forest and back. Which should be enforced.

The duelling club change is something I can attest towards and the main reason I had the spell duella/duellio be developed to assist in duelling club to prevent the verdimillious deaths or the students unable to clash spells, I do try whenever possible to hand out the spell and have given both moderation and game makers permission to switch themselves to the "Spell Scholar" job at will to do so also, but it seems either something was mistranslated or the team not wanting to bother to switch to a job to do so. Now what was presented above is an NPC to spawn in during the duelling club to amend the issue. I am not against this idea and if the above criteria cannot be met for it under the conditions. The NPC model is the same model as the spell scholar. I want the spell to be known to be handed out from that job specifically so that new/old players can recognize it and ask for future spells when seen. 

- Tl;Dr make an NPC the same model as spell scholar to hand out the duelling spells- Duella/Duellio during duelling club.

RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Larissa - 05-13-2022

1. It's a shame I liked Peter Pizza's music. The job is not allowed to play music in ear shot of active classrooms, I thought that was fine but I also have no idea what this 'out of RP' stuff you guys are talking about is.

2. I think if you want to hang someone from somewhere high you need to do it in a PVP area. Restricting roleplay? Barely, the positives outweigh the negatives for this change.

3. Every single time there is a verdimillious duel there is RDM. Players see the sign, purposelly kill their opponent and say 'Whoops I thought he was at 40.' Remove verdy, no one does it anyway. There are countless other spells to duel people without clashing, just pick one of them.

RE: Let's talk about the rules! - Jenny Dead - 05-13-2022

(05-13-2022, 05:21 PM)Larissa Wrote: 1.  I also have no idea what this 'out of RP' stuff you guys are talking about is.

Specifically the unsnatchable part of the job. Though if you don't make your job able to rescue, you can make it unsnatchable.